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Here
are all the (relevant) E-Mails related to the question of plastic verses
composite boats. Thanks to everyone who contributed to the discussion. In some
cases people got a little off subject and used this discussion as an
opportunity to rant on unrelated issues. If the ranting included something
useful to this discussion, I included them on this page anyway. Enjoy: As
the owner of the most recently damaged boat I have been asking myself the same
question. I am not 100% convinced that heavier is always better since two
of the three boats were of heavier glass construction than some of the other 1.
Kevlar is used because it is
lighter than fiberglass and somewhat more flexible--it doesn't shatter as
easily. 2.
The manufacturers use less Kevlar
than fiberglass for the same amount of strength thereby decreasing weight and
slightly increasing flexibility but not overall strength. 3.
The design of my boat, a Tesla NM,
has a relatively flat deck which absorbed all the force of impact. The
increased rigidity of the sides caused by the heavy plastic vertical adjusting
plates of the SmartTrack rudder system pedals and the longitudinal stiffener in
the hull prevented the boat from folding. Besides
not being where I was what could I have done to avoid the damage: I
could have rolled and let the impact fall on the slight V'd hull thereby
lessening the force of impact. I thought of this momentarily with the
following conclusion: While the water was deep enough to roll several
moments before the heavy hydraulics made the depth unknown. I could have
been pushed down into the sand and snapped my
neck. I could have been parallel to the breaker and rolled under the
crest. Insufficient time to maneuver. What,
if anything could have prevented the damage under the conditions: A
peaked design to the deck, heavier lay-up giving greater compression strength,
some type to internal stiffener inside the cockpit. Is
the answer plastic? I am not 100% convinced. On a recent trip to Believe
me I have given lots of thought to deck design. I have demo'd quite a few
boats and I still consider the Tesla a boat I can "feel at one
with." I think if the Kevlar lay-up was as heavy as the glass lay-up
on my other boat it would not have broken. Just
some thoughts— Mike
Brown Everyone, I think
a lot of composite kayaks are built with a lay-up that is too light, one
of my kayaks, an Arctic Hawk, being a good example. It is a bit flimsy, but so
far it hasn't been damaged when playing in the surf. My Ellesmere has some core
mat in the hull and deck for stiffening, and I can even stand on the front deck
without damaging it. One of the problems with a lot of kevlar kayaks is that
material flexes too much. Kevlar won't rip but it is not very stiff at all.
That's why most expedition lay-ups have kevlar and fiberglass and end up
weighing as much as a regular lay-up. On one hand I want a strong kayak, but on
the other, I want it to be easy to carry, so it is a little of give and take. I
guess that we just have to use our skills the best we can to avoid those
occasional situations when our composite kayaks can be damaged. The Inuit
couldn't just go around and bang their skinboats into icebergs all the time
either. Duane As a person who occasionally contributes to the
"carnage" I feel that my mishaps are not only okay, but good in a
sense. I'm a beginner who started
kayaking in September. I've paddled in easy conditions, taken the two day
"intensive weekend" for Southwind Kayaks and joined in many of the
CKF coastal paddles since. In most
sports I've done I've found that it is best if any day is mostly just under to
at my ability, but with a little that is just past. The trick is to push the limits while
avoiding injury or spending all my time in rescue mode. So having an average of one capsize for every
two outings is about right for me (more capsizing when I'm purposely trying to
work on surf skills). Most of my capsizes are nothing worse than a minor hassle and at
times actually fun (I have a plastic boat so I'm not so concerned about boat
damage). So when I hear of a trip suitable for
"advanced beginners" I carefully monitor the surf reports and then
join in if I think I won't get hurt or spend too much time upside down. So other beginners too may be encouraged to join
these trips. They too may contribute to
the "carnage". As long as it
is kept within limits that people accept then these beginners will soon be more
skilled. If there are better ways to advance without also
spending time capsizing I'm all ears.
Otherwise I'll continue having fun getting wet every now and then. --John My 2 cents I think we should keep a grasp
on the potentially more severe problem; that of someday somebody getting
severely injured while crashing in the waves. Like a broken neck or head.
With the number of yakkers severely dumping lately, the pessimistic prediction
is that it is just a matter of time until it happens. We know there
is potentially a very large force of tons of water upon a rigid boat surface,
and with sand and rocks being involved, against a frail human inside or
underneath. The kayak is a dangerous object to avoid being near when spilling
in the surf, I postulate. OK, easy to say and a lot of people have fun with the
risk and excitement of being in the surf. And they will say it is worth the
danger. So what then? Perhaps think of a kayak surf spill with human inside to
be unacceptable, and to avoid it at all costs. We can, say, launch only in
harbors or tiny waves, but to allow to launch in typical conditions (relatively
rough water), then one must read the waves well, launch as fast and
strongly as humanly possible, and be able to bail out and get away from the
kayak as fast as possible if needed, I believe. I mention here my way of
doing it. I hold my kayak steady in thigh deep water (even lifting it
above the waves), then waiting until the right instant of relative calmness of
waves, I jump in and paddle like mad until I am in deeper safe water. Typically
we are talking about 10 seconds to jump in and do intense windmill
paddling -- less than the wave period of large waves. I leave my legs out of
the kayak sticking out forward during that time because I can't afford the
seconds to put then inside. I do not have time, either, to attach the spray
skirt. If I have to plow into some whitewater, yes, some gets in. When landing
the procedure is similar: fast, be ready, jump out and hand
hold the yak among the waves when almost on the beach (I do leave my
legs inside, but skirt pulled, when coming in). How I find the right instant
between the waves, I can say a lot more sometime to those who may be
interested. The advantage, of this, I
say, is that I am ready to bail very fast if I am about to get creamed or
dumped in a big wave or even a small one. I jump out on the safer side of the
boat and if needed, dive down away from the boat. Admittedly or fortunately I
have not had to do this yet in a big crasher. I have when almost on the shore
coming in; the boat dumped over (but not with me in it). I look at an emergency
exit in something big as abandoning the boat (but not me), to the tons of
water, sand, rock etc. Maybe a permanent loss of the yak but
not me. Maybe this procedure is not
as feasible with a very sleek and narrow yak. Mine is 24 inches wide and not
with not a very upcurved bow. And I am sure there are other factors I have not
mentioned. It is probably an oddball way of launching. Nobody else seems
to do it this way. Thoughts and comments?
Is it really acceptable to crash in dangerous surf while inside? Why
is the method of lingering in the shallows with hand on bottom at first the only(?) one taught? Note - I think I am less easily
damaged by criticism then Kevlar boats are by surf. Ron Hudson Ron and
All, I never
launch or land in any surf, big or small, with my sprayskirt unattached or
my legs hanging out. With my leg inside and my skirt on, I can brace and keep
water out if a wave hits me. With your legs hanging out, you can't brace very
well, and with a boat full of water after punching a wave with the skirt
off, your stability is going to be low and you will probably need to brace.
When you can't brace very well, you are probably going swimming, and your kayak
with a flooded cockpit is going to be tossed around and rolled on the beach by
the waves, a situation in which it is very vulnerable to damage. On a
landing with the skirt off, water can get in the kayak if a wave hits you,
which is likely, and your kayak will be much heavier, making it more vulnerable
to damage if you hit a rock and harder to drag up to safety away from the
waves after you get out. Duane I recently found a nice glossary of composite materials in Paddler
magazine I thought I'd pass along. I've never known there are different types
of glass boats and found this interesting. v
E-Glass: Resistant to compression and
abrasion. Not especially strong under tension and can be heavy due to
high absorption of resign. Often used in the outer layers of composites. v
S-Glass: High performance fiberglass cloth.
Abrasion resistant with a greater tensile strength (resistant to longitudinal
stress) than E-glass. Also used in outter layers. v
Kevlar: Synthetic fiber with resistance to
tension and shock, not especially resistant to compression and abrasion.
Used in bulletproof vests and auto racing helmets, also on inner layers and
complete constructions of boats. v
Carbon Fiber: A rigid fiber with high tensile
strength. Used as a stiffening layer or for reinforcement. Jon Steve When I
ordered my Express last March I mentioned to Matt Broze at Mariners Kayaks that
I planned on keeping my Looksha Sport because it would be better for rock
gardening. He went on in elaborate detail why that was not the
case. He seemed exasperated by the endurance of what he
considers the plastic myth. I feel
unqualified to wade in on the subject but offer this just to point out that many
serious kayakers do not consider plastic a superior rock garden boat. I'm
pretty sure you would get a pretty good argument on the BASK list from kayakers
used to conditions more extreme than we are accustomed to down here. A great subject. Thanks for initiating the
discussion.
Wow! This is an interesting question. I wonder, however, if
you really want to hear the answer? You preface this question as asking for
opinions, so please bear in mind that this is mine, for whatever it's worth. I believe that virtually every major kayaking expedition has
been performed with a composite boat. I think that pretty much says it all. I
paddled the same composite boat for some fifteen years or so, doing trips in I have seen composite boats that were heavily damaged. I have
also seen plastic boats that were heavily damaged. The big difference between
the two is that while the damaged composite boats were repairable, the plastic
boats were trashed. Certainly, the ratio of damaged composite boats is higher
then that of the plastic ones. Polyethylene is tough stuff. However,
considering that a heavily damaged plastic boat is pretty much the end of that
boat, I would still have to say that the composite boats generally fare much
better, in the long run, then do the plastic.
Remember, this is just my opinion based on my own personal experiences. Which brings us to the question of just what are you people
doing to cause all of this damage to your boats in the first place? Is the
strength of the boats really the issue here? I think it might be worth noting
that while I receive and read countless kayaking trip reports from around the
world, your group is the only one that seems to regularly include a number of
capsizes and boat damage. Why is that? Is it that you folks are the only group
out there that is really testing it's limits? It seems
to me that not very long ago there was a discussion about the actual level of
your day trips in which all of your "leaders" claimed the trips to be
suitable for beginners. I had the enlightening pleasure to join you guys on the day
after Thanksgiving paddle at Palos Verde. While I considered the conditions to
be rather benign and did not have even the slightest problem launching or
landing, there were nevertheless a few capsizes in the group. During one
landing when I very politely tried to offer some constructive criticism about
the way things were being done I was surprised to have my advice quickly
shrugged away with the comment, "different people do things in different
ways." So what's the problem here? I'm asking you? Scott Thanks for your comments Scott. You have brought
out an interesting point not related to the original question so I'll comment
early. I wasn't the organizer of the Day after T day
paddle. Mike and Duane were. There were several capsizes in the surf zone,
which seems to be the norm from what I read in our SoCal trip reports. It
happens. My recollection from reading many Sea Kayaker magazine trip reports is
that capsizes in breaking water seem to be a common occurrence among all levels
of paddlers. The only difference may be the size of the waves, or whether it
ends in a swim or a roll. Anyway, that was a fun paddle that I though went
quite well, especially considering the extremely wide range of skills and
experience of the group. Since you refer to "your group", I am
assuming that you are relating the day after T day paddle with our usual PV
rock garden paddles. There is no similarity. While you were enjoying "benign"
conditions, there was a lot of excitement (and some danger) to be experienced
in the rocks just a few meters away. This should not be confused with just
launching or landing in rocks with that as your goal. Any experienced paddle
should know how to do that without mayhem. Rock gardening is deliberately
making fun out of wash-overs, surge channels, caldrons, etc. So, I would describe rock gardening as a
cross between surfing and white water paddling, either of which is likely to
result in capsizes. Some time ago, a very well known paddler,
instructor, well known author, made a to-do about truly skilled paddlers being
able to rock garden without touching a rock. I was skeptical, but open to
seeing it done. I have to say that watching this man paddle was a thing of
beauty. His boat control is more than I ever hope to accomplish. Nevertheless,
he had his boat hung up in the rocks after only a few minutes of very low
intensity rock gardening. So, composite boats are just out of the question
for serious rock play, unless repairing boats is part of your hobby. My
question about the suitability of composite boats is really related to open
ocean paddling only, which, I suppose, should include launching and landing in
rocks, but not playing in them.
Steve Brown Steve, Margo
While I do agree with you that plastic is probably a
better choice for the average paddler who wants to play in the rocks, I would
be somewhat reluctant to declare composite boats unsuitable for such tasks. Scott
Let's
try this one: If a
sixteen year old kid with a learners permit crashes a Ferrari into a brick wall
are you going to blame the damage to the vehicle on the inherent weakness' of
that particular type of car, or on the poor judgment and/or lack of experience
of the driver? Do you
see where I'm going here? There are certainly some cheaply made composite boats
on the market, just as there are some really well made ones. Regardless, if you
put the boat in the right situation you can damage it. If someone would like to
contribute their plastic boat for a little experiment I feel fairly certain
that if I were allowed to take it out for a day on the water I could destroy
it. This wouldn't really prove anything, but I would certainly enjoy the
experience :-) Plastic may give you a little more leeway in rough conditions.
But I would not be too quick to discount composite boats for being up to the
task either. Composite boats are infinitely repairable. You can't say that
about the plastic ones. Which type of boat would you rather have on a trip to
some remote location? One you can fix if it gets damaged, or one you can't? Scott And
to that I might add what's the use in building a pretty but delicate wood boat?
They aren't much cheaper in the end than composite boats, add the
emotional attachment that can't help but occur after so many hours invested and
well, I'll stick to Tupperware for play and Kevlar for distance. (haven't done the distance thing for quite a while though.) I
have to admit I get nervous every time I hear talk of building boats cause
I know nobody will want to "adventure paddle" for fear of boat
damage. Jack PS:
have you seen how bashed up my Kevlar Looksha 2 is? PPS:
I think a big contributing factor to the carnage is the combination of high
tide and steep beach. My shoulder problems began 8 years ago when out of
ignorance I was playing in that combination, got sucked out to the foot of a
dumper, left momentarily dry and side ways, dumped on, picked up, turned up
side down and driven inverted into the sand. I
landed on my shoulder and neck. The work fall of course did the big damage but that was my first
injury. I hear Don got trashed in the same combination just a few weeks ago and
now this trip report says the same. I think unless you are lucky and or a
surf god, its the worst conditions for
composite boats. I can think of no bigger threat to composite other than adding rocks to the
combination of high tide and steep beach. Just my opinion though. Hi
Scott: Read
your comments with interest. I agree
with your comments on plastic vs. composite boats. I would also add the weight
and speed factor. My kevlar boat is considerably easier to heft and is
faster than the average plastic boat. The kevlar is tougher than
fiberglass, as well. I was able to get a major bash repaired back to
nearly original condition, although kevlar is harder to work with than
fiberglass. As to
your comments about capsizes, etc....... I think that you are excessively
generalizing. Some of the capsizes reported are
simply launchings and landings on day touring trips in sea kayaks. I personally
think that there are excessive capsizes on some of those trips. I also know
that there were tricky dumping waves on the recent trips reported, also. I
observed some of those that were just bad luck or bad timing. Some
were due to inexperience. Having been on hundreds of trips, I have seen many
dozens of capsizes. As to
the day after Thanksgiving trip, I had zero problems also. I feel that
the less experienced folks should have timed them better or ridden in behind
the crests. Dumping waves are much less forgiving than spilling
ones. But if you were going to experiment with dumping waves, that was a good day, since they weren't of lethal size. One
guy who did a particularly spectacular dump is actually a good kayaker. I have
paddled with him at As to
the offhand comment by one person you recounted that different people do
different things, I would hardly hold that to be a valid statistical sample of
club sentiments. I find that improvement suggestions are better offered
and received later on, after things have calmed down. The CKF
leaders are usually very good about announcing the hazards in advance and
taking care of group members. Most of these incidents happen
on sandy beaches, which considerably reduces the hazards. Others
of the capsizes occurring were in surfing situations.
For instance, Mike Brown and I were in very tricky coastal shoal conditions in
big surf when his deck was stove in by a plunging wave. Capsizes are quite
common in such environments. For example, in two surfing sessions, I capsized
five times and recovered three times. That is not very often at all for kayak
surfing in winter. When I'm upside down in rough, shallow water, I tend
to pull the rip cord faster, especially if it looks easy to swim in. Executing
a heroic and photogenic roll has to be balanced against the risk of snapping
your neck. Recently,
my paddle was snapped like a toothpick while I was still holding it (albeit
upside down on a shoal in dumping surf). That's a bit unusual. I think part of
the problem was the Swift paddle, which is too much of a compromise to reduce
weight. I have never had such problems with my Werner paddles. Likewise, I think
that some of our composite kayaks are built a little too light for these winter
surf conditions and may not be appropriate for surfing. That's why I
usually use my plastic Necky Looksha Sport or Perception Pirouette for those
conditions. But, sometimes, we're out paddling in the composite boats and
just see these interesting "opportunities" J If you
are overly upset by what you see, perhaps you will offer us the benefits of
your instruction. Happy
holidays, George
Miller Hi John: How about Silly Putty? Your kayak did pretty well
in the rough conditions on the Regards, Gordon: Happy holidays to you, too. Years ago, I had a 16' wooden outboard boat, that was worn,
leaky and literally falling apart by the seams. I reinforced the ribs with 1/4" plywood gussets, with SS
bolts, beefed up the transom and added 4" fiberglass tape and epoxy resin
to all seams. I then covered the entire bottom with fiberglass and polyester
resin. Ten years later, when I last saw it in the possession of a new owner, it
was still doing great. Of course, it never had the experience of Bomber Brown
piloting it under seven foot dumpers... Regards, A little more on plastic vs. composite boats.... I have repaired composite boats (fiberglass and kevlar
composite) more than once and have seen that they are very repairable, often by
people with little experience, once they learn a little. Plastic boats
are not so simple. Joanne Turner, co-owner of Southwind and incidentally,
founder of CKF, had the following input for us today (I hope I got all of this
right): -
Fiberglass is the easiest to
repair by far. Kevlar is not much harder. Recent repairs on my Perception
Eclipse demonstrated that Kevlar is rather hard to "feather" (sand
the edges), so it is better to do a final top layer of fiberglass. -
Plastic is initially more durable
on rocks, but is subject to catastrophic damage, in very difficult conditions,
that is more difficult to repair. Best way to handle temporary repairs is
to wash, dry, clean with acetone, then apply duct
tape. It tends to come off every few hours. Sometimes a bad rip is almost
impossible to fix. -
Plastic boats can often be heat welded,
with a heat gun or butane torch. Joanne recommends using a piece from the
original boat, taken from an inside area where it won't be missed. She
says that Doug and Harold from Southwind are both quite proficient in
performing such repairs. -
She disputes the assertion that
plastic boats can't be repaired in remote places, suggesting that you can bring
along a small butane torch to effect emergency repairs. -
Joanne says that most plastic
boats are made from Linear Polyethylene, which is fairly repairable. Some
really cheap boats are made of cross link plastic, which is definitely NOT
repairable. In my consulting experience with injection molders, I learned
that cross link can't even be re-melted. -
There is a third type of plastic,
used by kayak builders such as Prijon. It is more rigid and smooth, resulting
in faster, stronger boats, which are also easier to repair. Thanks, Joanne, for your always valued input.
Please let us know if I missed anything or if you have more to tell us. I use plastic for rock gardening, composite for most
touring. I currently use plastic for surfing. Someone please pass this on to SDKC, as I am not a
member. Regards, ~~~~~~~~~~~ Hi Sid: Your comments are right on. I don't know a lot of people with
more credible practical experience on the subject than you have. What's your opinion on epoxy resins? They aren't used
much on kayaks, probably because of cost, environmental and allergenic
problems. I've used them for powerboat and kayak repairs successfully. Bonding
to poly is OK, with proper surface preparation. I may experiment with repairing my snapped Swift paddle
(still again-- or maybe give it a decent burial at sea) with epoxy, but first I
need to find an appropriate matrix material. Any suggestions
as to product and source? Happy New Year! George Miller Okay, I'm going to
risk showing my ignorance and engineering ineptitude (which has never stopped
me before) by jumping into this thread. What about wood? I have a wood-core
kayak. It's a I'd be interested in people's thoughts on the
structural properties of a wood-core boat vis-a-vis plastic, fiberglass and
Kevlar. My boat uses
Okoume plywood as it's basic structural element.
It's a pretty high-quality plywood, free of
voids. I can't remember if it is 6mm or 4mm thick. The hull has a
layer of 6mm fiberglass cloth over the outside, filled with epoxy resin.
(I was surprised by George's comment that epoxy resin is uncommon in composite
boats - among wooden kayak builders it's pretty much the only type of resin
used.) The inner hull has
epoxy-paste (epoxy mixed with wood flour, to the consistency of peanut butter)
fillets in the seams, where the four plywood panels are joined, covered with
3" wide fiberglass strips and epoxy. The only other use of
fiberglass on the inner hull is on the floor of the cockpit, to protect the
hull from whatever I might do to it by sitting on it, sliding my sandy feet,
etc. The deck of my
boat has no fiberglass at all - just a sealer coat of epoxy resin inside and 3
coats outside. The manufacturer of the kit - Chesapeake Light Craft (www.clcboats.com) says that it isn't
necessary, and the weight savings of not glassing are worth it. It seems
like it's strong enough with just the plywood.
It's bent into an arch, which is pretty strong. They do offer an
"expedition" package, which includes fiberglass for the outer deck. I'm now in the process of gearing up to build
another kayak - this time a strip-built Guillemot, from Guillemot Kayaks (http://www.guillemot-kayaks.com/).
My decision to build this boat is part economic - I will still be able to build
it for substantially less than the purchase price of a comparable store-bought
boat; part aesthetic - I love the way these boats look; part recreational - I
think I enjoy the process of building as much as I like paddling the product;
and part functional - the strip building process allows a much more rounded
boat shape than the stitch-and-glue process used by my Chesapeake. Weight is not a
determining factor for me (see below) but I think strength is very
important. I'm wondering how strong the Guillemot will be compared to the
I don't have a
problem adding extra glass, wood, or whatever to strategic areas. For
instance, I'll probably put some kind of reinforcement behind the rear
bulkhead, for when I have to sit on top of the boat prior to reentering after a capsize. I'm amused by
people who worry about every ounce of weight, although
I think my amusement is aimed more at myself than them. I say that
because I'm proud that my wood boat is pretty light, but when I paddle I
typically load it up with a collapsible ice chest, a folding chair, extra
paddles ( (By the way, I'm
guilty of the same kind of thing when bicycling. I sometimes am tempted
by ads for expensive titanium bikes which weigh 5 or 6 pounds less than mine,
but then I realize that I always ride with wrenches, a heavy chain
tool, a few extra metric bolts, a spare tube, a pump, a fleece vest, a cd
player and cd's, extra batteries, a sandwich, and two big water bottles.
Oh, and I have a really cool Goofy horn on my handlebars. Squeeze Goofy's
head and honk at friendly pedestrians.) I think the weight
issue in kayaking is more of a concern when carrying than when
paddling. But if you're big enough, and don't mind carrying a few extra
pounds. Any
thoughts out there? (I know there are tons of thoughts, and many
excellent thinkers. Anyone care to share a few?) Happy holidays
from little old Los Osos. - Gordon Gordon, you may find that un-glassed 4mm plywood has
very little puncture resistance once something sharp hits it.
The Okoume is wonderful stuff but the epoxy alone will not keep it from flexing
and opening up little cracks that exposes the nice porous Okoume to water
stains. I built a Patuxent 17 7+ yrs ago in the S.F. area and used it in
the bay and ocean. The CLC recommendation that glass isn't needed
is based on flat water use around the Annapolis area and no rescue practice as
a way to keep the weight down as much as possible and NOT from experience in
coastal conditions,, that's where I live right now, I’ve paddled on the west
coast and you won't find ocean conditions unless you drive 2 1/2 hrs from
Annapolis and most of the time the waves are small compared to what
happens off of any beach out there, to say nothing about rocky
conditions. The places where people paddle in the I had a person spot me while in a kayak with un-glassed 4mm
deck, in one of the rescue maneuvers the bow of the other boat pierced the
deck a bit with their bow. Glassed Okoume is very tough but
if plywood is getting stressed with impacts then there really
should be glass on both sides. In a series of classes I did 2 1/2yrs ago
with CLC boats that had un-glassed decks and inadequately reinforced aft
hatches, 3 hatches failed catastrophically, two decks broke, and all of them
elicited cracking sounds. All of the boats now have 4oz deck glass and
better hatch reinforcements. Along these lines Betsy Bay kayaks are very
light and not meant for bashing but if you're making your own boat it's fun to
see what works and doesn't. If you've got a standard Chesapeake
then you might notice that in the aft compartment between the 3" tape that
the bottom hull panel is un-glassed, some folks have found that the flexing ! that can occur there on kayak karts or gentle point landings
on rocks can crack the wood in a way that will not occur in the cockpit area.
Like a glass hull cracking sounds don't indicate anything catastrophic but in
the wood boat will allow water to intrude into the relatively dry wood and
start staining things. In that particular area it is a warning that the
wood was flexed to minor damage, even with 4oz glass on the interior in that
compartment the amount of resin used wouldn't be much different than what is
there to seal the wood and will do a lot to prevent the cracking that opens the
grain. Likewise putting a piece of 6oz under the aft deck between
the bulkhead and hatch opening will address stresses found in rescues. If you want to go to the next level of protection then
s-glass will have some of the benefits of Kevlar in abrasion and tension
but better attributes of compression than Kevlar. It'll hold
the wood together better as the wood fibers fail compared to e-glass. Back to the original comment as to whether composite " boats are up
to it.." it's worth looking at the difference between a large oval
shaped hull cross section like the Tesla and compare it to a smaller
diameter and less oval hull shapes to see that the total stress of a
dumping wave and where it's concentrated can quite different.
Another reason for enjoying small boats, 45lbs of material in a small boat for
a 150lbpaddler is a heck of a lot tougher than
45 lbs in a boat designed to carry a 250lb fellow. drop a shot glass or drop a champagne glass,, they're both
'glass'. cheers, LeeG Cruising PCH vs. 4 wheeling off road? Same subject no? You don't take a
BMW sports car off roading do you? You don't take a touring bike on mountain
bike trails and you don't spit into the wind. There's a reason you don't see
17- 18- 19 foot glass or Kevlar boats in the Best of the West kayak surf
contests. They're touring boats that can make surf launches and landings.
They're not designed with the intent of being a surf play boat though.
Now repeat after me, touring boats are for touring, surf boats are for play in
the surf and river boats are for rivers. It's really very simple, the right
boat for the right application. Use your touring boat for surf play and
continue to make repairs or replace boats. Mike The Tsunami boats are a custom design for the extreme
conditions and their adrenaline of choice are rocks, caves and large
surf. These boats can take a beating! They're expensive (excess of
$3,000.00). A 15-16 foot Tsunami boat can weigh as much as 55-65 lb. They use a
heavy fiberglass and kevlar lay up and are tough boats to say the least! For the rocks and caves of No. Ca. they are great boats but
a little over the top for So. Ca. and our barren beaches.
We have late breaking dumping surf on most of our So. Ca. beaches. Wayne Horodowhich made a great point. If you
want to play in surf, get a cheaper plastic boat and practice until your tired.
Save your glass or Kevlar boat for touring as it was meant to be used. When you
do get into situations with your glass or Kevlar boat you should be able to
brace and ride it out safely after all the practice in your plastic boat.
I think it might be important to note that some kayakers know
when to sit on the beach and watch like Duane stated in his trip report. If I
remember right there were a couple of kayaks that broke that day as well. Just a thought. Desecration and judgment can be just as
valuable as a good lay up of composites. Mike ST, Mike Greetings all and hope 2003 is as enjoyable as 2002
for the club outings. I love reading the trip reports and the dialog on the
e-mails. Here are some additional
thoughts and considerations. Back to the basic question - Are composite boats
really up to the rigors of open ocean paddling,
including launching and landing in moderately large surf? This is a two part question. Open ocean Vs launching and landing. In my opinion, launching and landing is
different than playing in the surf and being in the location of where the wave is
breaking. I have had the good fortune and pleasure to speak
with many of the main designers of the most popular kayaks out their (composite
and plastic). To the best of my memory I
have never heard any of them say they have designed and built their kayaks with
a main design feature being the thought of the the weight of a big dumping wave
on their decks. The closest I have heard
was the reason for the use of Kevlar.
The weight to strength ratio is stronger for straight-on impacts. This helps with direct impacts. However the shear strength is reduced. This means that if you do a nose dive with
your kayak and hit bottom the damage could be greater. The strength in Kevlar is direct impact which
is perpendicular to the material. I know
the Tsunami Rangers Custom Rock Garden kayaks are made for impact in mind but
they will be the first to admit the have had to repair their kayaks due to the
forces placed upon them. I believe the majority of ocean kayaks are suited for
open ocean paddling. I don't think any
kayak is designed for taking the forces of the ocean when you are in the
location of a breaking wave. Some kayaks
will do better than others but those forces can be so great how could you build for them and still be able to lift the
kayak. Think of it from the designers
viewpoint. They are designing boats for
paddling. They are concerned about
tracking, edging, stability, maneuverability, cost and weight. The kayak's main function is that of
transportation. The analogy of the BMW
sports car being used for 4-wheeling is the best answer to your question of a
kayak being suited for taking the force of dumping waves. I have not seen a dumping wave simulator in
any of the manufacturer plants I have visited. When I got my custom lay-up for my kayak I wanted
Kevlar for the weight reduction and the boat designer told me it wouldn't be
strong enough for my size and weight and what I have been known to do in my
kayak. (height 6'7" , weight "none of your
business J
). He suggested a hybrid of Glass &
Kevlar. It was also reinforced in key
areas. Extra heavy lay-ups are common
for those who like to push their limits but damage still occurs. The bottom line is kayaks get damaged when
put under a breaking wave, don't be there if you want
to keep your kayak intact. However, as an instructor I also know that sooner or
later one will end up in the wrong place at the right time and have a wave
break on them. Therefore, shouldn't one
practice in those conditions to learn what to do? I believe so (to an extent). That is why we use plastic kayaks for that sort of
training. However, we accept that the
plastic kayak can and does get damaged in those conditions. It is part of the process. Our goal in the instruction is to teach the
paddler how NOT to be where the waves breaks.
I suggest getting a carnage kayak (like rock skis) if you want to do
that sort of practice and playing. The trend in manufacturing is significantly based
upon consumer demand. The consumer has
been led to believe lighter is better. I too like lifting less than lifting
more. However, how strong are the
lightweight materials? Are they strong
enough for the forces
YOU paddle in? If not, get
YOURSELF stronger equipment or alter where YOU paddle. You can have the best of all worlds by having
a lot of equipment. Those who know me
know I use a two paddle philosophy. A
stronger paddle for launchings, surf work, landings, rocks & caves, and rough water. My light weight when it is long distance calm
days. Both are with me when I go out so
I can change to the conditions. I do the
same when I play in the surf. My carnage kayak for the surf zone. My touring kayak when I want to go paddling. Keep up the carnage.
I love reading those stories. Wayne Horodowich Hi All, I just got off the phone with
Thanks for the correction George. High performance surf kayaks are of composite
construction, and regularly take hits in large surf (8-12ft) without incident.
They are usually layed up a bit heavier, but surf kayaks in the 8ft range with
bomber layups are being built that weigh 16lbs. A boat like that will run about $2000. I think a
touring boat with a layup used on these surf kayaks might be prohibitively
expensive for many paddlers. A cheaper remedy may be to install mini cell pillars,
front and rear, to stiffen the deck. Just about all surf and whitewater kayaks
have pillars for this reason. ~John I've been thinking in the same vein. For the last year I've been looking for a
boat for my girlfriend that would be comparable in weight and handling to my
glass Solstice. So that we would be evenly matched.
But now I'm seeing that there is a lot you have to watch out for in a glass
boat that wouldn’t be a problem for a plastic boat. Steve Keene Steve, Since you are asking for opinions, and mine are as
valid as anyone else's, here's my 2 cents. I think that the current marketing for most
manufacturers centers around weight. Somehow everyone
seems to be getting the idea that lighter is better. In my not so humble
opinion, that is not always the case. Most of the North American boats seem to
me to be built for "calmer waters." However if you
check out some of the "British Heavies", I think you will see some
real differences in construction. Take a look at the Nigel Dennis, Nigel
Foster, and Derek Hutchinson designs. These boats are all somewhat heavier than
comparable N. American designs. There must be a reason for it. After seeing a number of lightweight paddles break, I
use a heavy graphite and FG paddle that weighs 41 oz.
- but it handles pushing off from the beach and rocks a lot better than my just
as expensive lightweight paddles. So--IMHO, lighter is not always better. Steve Holtzman George, Wayne et al. “The
term I should have used was compression strength.
Thanks for the correction George.” Yes, Kevlar and fiberglass have no compression
strength. The resin provides that. Vinylester resin is more flexible than
polyester. George,
thanks for your discussion on the properties of various materials used in hull
construction. Although I took the standard courses in materials science, I have
always worked in metal finishing (electroplating, immersion coatings, anodizing
etc.) and water quality (pollution) control. I am not a polymer chemist. I have seen a number of Kevlar/glass boats
damaged under ordinary "working conditions". Typical Kevlar/glass
lay-ups strive for minimum weight but sacrifice compressive strength and an
ability to dampen forces. The Kevlar fabric does seem to remain intact and
prevent leaks until repair can be made. Perhaps Kevlar in addition to the usual lay-up
for a glass only boat is best. But of course there are many sea
worthy plastic boats and one should never be too proud to paddle one if that is
what is available. ST Although I am a chemical engineer, rather than
discuss materials, I'll simply pass-on a few observations and a couple of
personal experiences. Force 10 and the Tsunami Rangers use composite boats
(to my knowlege). Of course, this is for rock gardens not touring. I once saw a Tesla in Ed Gillet's shop in pitiable
condition. He assured me that it would soon look and be "as good as
new", a prediction later borne true. Polyethylene has a shorter shelf life than glass.
Volatile components eventually say adios and it cracks. Despite theoretical
assertions that it can be welded it is problematic, besides the material has no
integrity at this point anyway, unless it is simply a shark bite on a
relatively new boat. If you use acetone first you may be able to get duct tape
to stick. .. kind of like using a sail to staunch a
leak on a wooden ship. After some 3,000 miles and a hundred different
landings, lateral cracks appeared in the mid section of my Arluk III. I
repaired it (reinforced it) mid tour. I have seen four mid tour repairs with
glass. In one incident a plastic Narpa made the landing without damage (but
with more skill). Composite boats can exceed the length/width ratio of
a plastic boat. Composite boats are faster, though it depends on who
is paddling. Speed (distance made good) is important while making a crossing. Much of the discussion on launching and landing
relates to empty boats. Loaded boats behave differently. If you get swamped in
the surf the loaded boat stays with the water while waves wash over (there's an alliteration!). It will be a bitch to get it to shore.
Touring boats are not surf boats ideally. The most crucial part about launching
is getting the loaded boat afloat. Once you have broached you got to get out,
right the boat seaward and try again. Getting someone to hold the bow and give
you a shove offers the best prospect for a successful launch. Landing you try to stay on top of the wave
and ride in on its crest ideally, but often you must (especially in a shoal)
broach intentionally and do a high brace seaward. This can be bumpy but it
better than windowshading (or pitch-poling). The only boat I ever destroyed was glass. It was a
foolish launch in rocks and weather. The tail section levered in the rocks and
I paddled off with a shredded stern. A plastic boat might have survived (mine
sank). I have paddled the 1100 mile long CA coast and made
36 landings. I always intend to land in protected places, especially harbors
and the like. This is not always possible. I bought a plastic boat for the
northern coast anticipating rocky landings but was unable to foresake the
beauty and speed of glass. The Narpa was left at home. But after all, it is the paddler not the boat that
finds nirvana. Kinda like those SUVs in gridlock traffic. ST Mike, “Desecration and judgment can be just as
valuable as a good lay up of
composites.” I'm sure you meant discretion and good judgment
but thanks for the malapropism. ST PS: That strength that absorbs head-on impact
can also bash a hole in the side of a glass kayak for those that regrettably
attempt a T-rescue in rough water. ST Steve, Sorry to hear about the damaged boats...think I'll
stick with my invincible SOT plastic boats for now. I hope that you and your family has
a great Christmas. We have a lot to be
thankful for (especially you with all the wild waves you have been on this
year!) I will be on vacation but staying home for the next
week and a half and I'd like to surf with you all at Bluff Cove one morning (if
you are not in Baja) If I don't see you before then, have a great New
Year. Richard Steve: Not all composite boats are created equal. I don't know what makes one kayak stronger
than another. Layup,
of course. Location of bulkhead(s)? Shape of deck? Length of boat? Design? Some composite boats feel solid, others feel
"flexy". Maybe Nigel Foster
could shed some light on this. I paddle a Dagger Meridian, and it has handled
everything I have given it (although it would prefer that I not hit
rocks). I know many people who paddle
then in NoCal, and only one has managed to beat one up pretty bad. This was due to impact with rocks in a surf
zone, and was not at all like the photos of Maybe I will have to take it out and see what
happens. Jonathan Steve: Just some quick thoughts:
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